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Leon_1138
Observer
April 2001
Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200409151117
Stick with those lines of enquiry and you may yet make a better detective than Babysham.
              
DanTheDestroyer
Bounty Hunter
April 2001


 

Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200409170324
I'm told by my contacts in the city (of Sheffield) that there was some filming going on THIS WEEK! There were some crowds of extras being filmed around Division Street in the early hours of the morning, with camera crews milling all over the scaffolding on the City Hall. Can't tell you any more than that, I'm afraid. Bit late, isn't it?
Leon_1138
Observer
April 2001
Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200409180211
You're right about the filming, Dan. They were finishing off some scenes for the final episode. Ewan McGregor has been off on a motorbike all Summer, so they had to fit him into the scenes.
You're right too that it's a bit late, but it was always scheduled that way. The last episode is due out at Halloween, so they have a good month to finish it.
         
DanTheDestroyer
Bounty Hunter
April 2001


 

Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200409190002
I guess that means there are eight episodes, yes?
So it was Tomy wot dun it.
Is Steve Buscemi in it again at all? Does he have much of a role?
Leon_1138
Observer
April 2001
Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200409192108
There are less than eight episodes. There's a break for snooker.

Steve Buscemi is in again, but he filmed more than has made the final cut. The original idea was that he'd be in multiple cameos throughout (particularly in pubs, though that was changed pretty early on), but most of his cameos were behind Juliet Landau so had to be dropped. I'm not entirely sure what the point was, but there you go.
 

DanTheDestroyer
Bounty Hunter
April 2001

 

Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200409202014
I've made a map showing Babysham's route in this episode:

The turquoise is the River Don.
The red dot at the right, near the river, is Babysham's office and the police staton.
The blue dotted line is the route of the underground river (and associated tunnels).
The yellow dot is Mayburn's shop.
The pink line is the route Letitia took. The arrow and dotted line give an unseen section of the route that I have assumed.
The green dot is the cemetery.
The pink dots are the Gardener's Rest and the Devonshire Cat pubs.
The darker magenta dots (barely distinguishable from the red) are the quarry behind the Ski Centre, the square behind the Cathedral, and the library.
The purple dot is the Adelphi Theatre in Attercliffe, a photo of which I notice is on the website.
Ignore the darker lines. They're just something that was on the map already (places I've walked, if you must know).

 

Mrs.McGregor
Zen Flamencoist
February 2003


 

Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200409211934
What's this Adelphi Theatre business?
 

----
"When the Moon hits the sky like a big pizza pie, that's Appocalypse".
 

DanTheDestroyer
Bounty Hunter
April 2001


 

Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200409221415
I was doing an image raid on the official website, and I found this:

My conclusion is that this building will be making an appearence.
 

Leon_1138
Observer
April 2001
Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200409231546
The next episode will help you out there, I think. And it's a major setting in Episode 4.
                   
  
DanTheDestroyer
Bounty Hunter
April 2001


 

Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200409260059
All DarthPat's birthdays have come at once, but is there anything in today's episode that can help us predict the future?
 

 

DanTheDestroyer
Bounty Hunter
April 2001


 

Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  -  200409262331
I've put a translation of the Mousemen website up on the other thread. There's my Adelphi.
 

  

Leon_1138
Observer
April 2001
Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  -  200409281607
Regards the "dream" sequence, most of it is probably just weirdness, but I think there's one or two subtle foreshadowings. Let's see what DarthPat makes of it.
                 
Leon_1138
Observer
April 2001
Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200410021223 - Edited 200410021251 by Leon_1138
This is a response to DarthPat's post on the other thread:

"The first quarter of an hour seems to be playing on the similarities between Babysham and Angel, so we have Babysham rising like a vampire at the start, and then the thing about experiencing total happiness."

Can't argue with that.

"I think the use of Bullseye is probably deeply significant. But I don't know why. I did notice though that the guest was Keith Barrett, and that then Jim Barrett shows up. I think that was a deliberate foreshadowing."

I think this is not the only reference to Bullseye in the series. And of course, Babysham has been connected with Bullseye before (Ep6).

As for the Barrett conneciton, it is almost certainly deliberate.

"I expect there's some sort of significance to the Romeo & Juliet bit, but I don't know what." 

There seems to be an awful lot of Shakespeare references in Babysham. There's more to come. I've been racking my brain trying to remember references in ANS, and all I can come up with is Hamlet in Ep2 ("alas, poor Babysham"...). So it looks like Shakespeare and Bullseye are both themes associated (perhaps) exclusively with Babysham.

"As for the web-site... Is the mention of Lauren a suggestion that Bhuvana is involved with the Mousemen? I'm with Dan on the Dark Duke being David Dickinson."

I can't see how the Dark Duke can be anyone else.

"We are treated to a number of Prisoner references, so I guess that Babysham is a prisoner in his own mind or something soppy like that."

That or SJ's been watching the Prisoner.

"I'd like to think that the milkfloat is a David Bowie reference. 'Don't let the milkfloat ride your mind' (Rock 'n' Roll Suicide)."

Me too.

"The Twin Peaks reference probably just established the sort of territory we are in. I don't know enough about Emmerdale to comment on that sequence though."

It seems to be a reference back to the Emmerdale plane crash:
Eric (the bloke with the 'tash) was having wife trouble at the time, and she disappeared in the disaster. The suggestion was that she'd been killed by Eric rather than the plane. (www.emmerdale.org/emmerdale/profiles/eric/eric.htm)
Archie (the bloke in the ice cream van - that was his job in the programme) also disappeared, and there was the suggestion that he was still alive. (www.emmerdale.org/emmerdale/profiles/archie.htm)
The impending doom on the horizon is probably a poke at Emmerdale's regular disasters / publicity stunts.

"I think maybe that the exploding pub and the Pulp Fiction quote are connected, because the exploding pub reminded me of the end of that film noir thing with the glowing box. I forget what it's called, but the box in Pulp Fiction was based on the box in this, I seem to remember. Possibly this is a reference to the box that Eugene bought. Possibly Eugene bought some sort of magical Box of Delights thing."

You refer to "Kiss Me Deadly". It's a deliberate reference. I'd say the box in that was more "Pandora" than "of Delights". 

"The next pair of scenes seem to be suggesting that there is safety through religion. That consumerism is destructive and that religion is salvation. Which doesn't seem to be very like SJ. Maybe he's got born again?"

Much of this sequence is based on a real dream SJ had. Perhaps God was talking to him without him realising.

"I don't know what's going on with the miniature pub. Perhaps it's some sort of Alice in Wonderland thing, but I doubt it. More likely a local gag based on the pub itself."

Yes. The furinture in that pub is quite small. Not as small as this though.

"A look in my dream dictionary suggests that a flood is a symbol of being overwhelmed. But, as Peter Snow points out, it's also a Sheffield reference. So we probably can't read too much into it."

"Maybe the flood is simply the system crash."

Probably.

"Feet are a recurring theme in Babysham's head. There must be some significance, but I don't know what."

Nor do I.

"Alan Hanson refers to Jim as the "defender". Is there any greater significance to this than a half-pun? You could hardly call him a midfielder or a striker. I think Jim is simply a defender because he saved the Earth from the geese."

I think you're right.

"In the second half things get weirder. A floating man, Mike Leigh, and seven dwarfs (one with dominos instead of feet). I don't even begin to understand this sequence. Presumably the dwarfs are a Snow White-d up version of Twin Peaks."

If God is Dennis Potter, what might that make Mike Leigh? No, I'm just messing with your head. Or am I? Yes. Or no. Ah. :)

"What's the razor about? Not just there for a pun on 'cut', surely?"

Pass.

"Babysham seems to be betting on Open University experiments. Don't know why."

Nor me.

"The dwarf calls himself Mel Sterland. Google reveals that Mel Sterland was actually a player for Sheffield Wednesday in the 1980s. Dunno if he was short or something."

"That man appears again, on the ladder. Anyone know who he is?"

The myterious floating / painting man is one time England international, Mel Sterland. The dwarf may also have this name. 

"Jim hands the dwarf some dictaphone tapes. Maybe this is Jim's fresh program that will cure Babysham."

I think the idea that this is Jim's new programme is sound.

"Is there a significance to Jim walking into the door? "

Yes.

"Almost certainly, the moth in the paint is the bug that has afflicted Babysham."

Can't argue with that.

Very impressive musings, DarthPat. You picked up on more than I expected, and certainly noted all the deliberate clues I can think of in there. Great stuff.

Edit:

DarthPat has PMed me to let me know that she won't be coming in here until the series is over. So we'll have to speculate on this without her.
 

Mrs.McGregor
Zen Flamencoist
February 2003

Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200410050113
So what is the significance to Jim walking into the door? Is it just another line of defence for the virus? Or is it that Jim is tired?

I also notice you failed to answer the points about Lauren and Twin Peaks. Is that significant, or just irrelevent?

We know now that Lauren was Lauren Harries, but were you being deliberately oblique? Maybe Bhuvana is involved with the sect somehow. She seems to get everywhere else after all. She's like the Twin Peaks owls.

Shame we have to wait a fortnight for the next episode. 

And is there more to Sven than meets the eye?

----
"When the Moon hits the sky like a big pizza pie, that's Appocalypse".
 

Leon_1138
Observer
April 2001
Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200410071345
I'm not going to tell you everything. :)
            
DanTheDestroyer
Bounty Hunter
April 2001

Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200410092126
Us Sheffielders like our snooker. Or so I'm led to understand. I think it's quite a clever move to leave the gap. Heh.
The Sven thing's been bugging me too. It just seemed a bit naff. There must've been an extra layer of significance to it. But I don't see what yet.
As for Bhuvana... she's been on the phone (twice), at the door, on the television in Babysham's head, in a crypt in Babysham's head, on the radio... She's getting increasingly about. Is she just a Buscemi-esque cameo part, or is there more to her? I'm moving towards the latter.
       
Hutch
POG Adept
August 2002

Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200410120723
Thought I'd post an interview with SJ from ARS, broadcast before the start of the series:

Tell us a little about Babysham then. Well BS is a character from ANS... an android who's prone to malfunctioning. And well... he's dead now, and lives in Hell with a lawyer friend called Alan. They both used to work for the same secret government organisation see... But now BS's working as a detective in Hell, which looks rather a lot like Sheffield actually. And how does the story open? Well BS is employed by an old acquaintence called Tomy, to track down his ex-girlfriend. And at the same time he's acting as a bodyguard for an antiques dealer. But the antiques dealer tries to kill BS and then ends up dead himself. And that's where BS's troubles start, because he's been framed for the murder. How do you die, if you're in Hell? Well a lot of people in Hell aren't real. They're just conjoured up to play a part in this sort of fantasy world. But it IS possible to be killed; to end up completely dead. Right. It wouldn't be the same without a sense of risk. Yes. Anyway, BS and Alan are joined by the dead man's cousin, who knows that BS didn't do it, and who is keen to find out the truth. Ahuh. And yet at the same time he keeps getting bugged by the persistant Tomy. And rather tediously, the two cases happen to intersect. Oh yes? Yes. These things tend to happen on television. It's a small Hell. Right. You mentioned already that BS is a spin-off from your cult series ANS. Could you tell us more about how they relate together? Yes. Well this series happens subsequent to the events of the last ANS episode, at least relative to the characters. There's the implication that they've gone back in time and sorted out all the little knots that were screwing them up. And now they're back in Hell, enjoying their retirement, as it were, so to speak. Right. So it's essentially a continuation of the NS story? Yes. Well pretty much. It's a continuation of the NS story from the persepective of BS, with the occasional help from some old friends. But BS is something of a passanger in this story. He doesn't have a particularly pro-active role. He sort of gets dragged around from one place to another, getting increasingly confused or enlightened. It isn't clear which. And are there plans for another ANS episode after all this? Yes. Well... It's possible. It's certainly evident by the end of this series that there are greater things afoot that Babysham has wind of. And we might yet explore what they are. I'm not going to say yes, and I'm not going to say no, cos I've not decided yet. But you never know. I mean it's been the last episode several times now, so I'm not going to make that mistake again, and say "this is it, no more". But yes... there's material there to work with, if we feel like it. If. Right. And in the meantime there's this series. There is indeed. And it's as much a part of the ANS canon as anything, so... Yes. Keep an eye out for it. Or two if you have them. Right. Yes. BS then...

The interesting thing I took from it was the bit about being able to be killed. It was my understanding that the only way you could kill a dead person was by exterminating them.
 

Mrs.McGregor
Zen Flamencoist
February 2003


 

Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200410150123
Well that's the way, isn't it. Unless there's another way too. Or maybe Hell plays out like a computer game, and you have to start again if you're killed. We've only really experienced dead-people-mortality outside the confines of Hell, after all.

----
"When the Moon hits the sky like a big pizza pie, that's Appocalypse".
 

Leon_1138
Observer
April 2001
Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200410181242
Anyone fancy a deleted scene?
Well not deleted... It was scripted but never made it for casting reasons.
It's set in Letitia's flat, and was replaced by the scene with Eric and Tinker. Instead of them, we have Ian McShane.

BABYSHAM
 Lovejoy?

Irritated, Ian leads Babysham in.

IAN
 Lovejoy. Always fucking Lovejoy.
Lovejoy's dead. I'm Swearengen now.

BABYSHAM
 What?

IAN
I'm big in America, don't you know.

BABYSHAM
They running repeats of Lovejoy?

IAN
Shut up about Lovejoy. I'm not fucking
Lovejoy. I'm Ian McShane! Lovejoy was but
 one of many roles in a diverse acting career!
 Christ! You play a role for eight years on
   prime-time television... and suddenly you're
 branded. It's blighted my career. I'm trapped
as Lovejoy. And do you have any idea
 how much that pains me? There's not
much royalties coming off it these days.
Not with these reality antiques programmes.
 Not with David Fucking Dickinson.
 God. Pissing Lovejoy. I really regret
having done that show, you know.
The very thought of it makes me seethe.

  BABYSHAM
 Lovejoy?

IAN
 Yes. Lovejoy.

He says it with no love or joy whatsoever.

BABYSHAM
 What's with the Grobellar look?

IAN
It's to persuade people like you to stop seeing Lovejoy.
 Not that it's doing a particularly good job of it.

Letitia appears from the bedroom. She's wearing Lovejoy's leather jacket.

 LETITIA
Oh, hi!

 BABYSHAM
Hello. You have a good night, Saturday?

 LETITIA
 Nah. Stayed in. Watched the telly.

 BABYSHAM
 Ahuh. Only I thought I saw you...
 down Attercliffe way. No?

 LETITIA
 Nah. I was watching Casualty.

 BABYSHAM
 Funny. Cos it was at one of them
 Mouseman's Guild conventions.

 LETITIA
  That was my husband's domain.
 Nothing to do with me.

 BABYSHAM
 Right. Fair enough.

Ian has found a zinc bathtub in the corner of the room. He is sat in it (complete with foam soap-suds) strumming a guitar and singing "Bad Moon Rising".

 BABYSHAM
 You know many celebrity antique dealers?

LETITIA
 Ian's an actor.
 His knowledge of antiques is rather paltry.

 BABYSHAM
 Ok. Do you know any celebrity antique dealers?

 LETITIA
 No.

BABYSHAM
 Hmm. Alright. 








Ok. 
Cos you sat nicely through that, here's a REAL deleted scene. 
It's from the section where Stew meets Bhuvana, and it was replaced by the silent movie thing. 
The very start is missing.
Be warned. It's rich in spoilers...
 
 

BHUVANA
...or Thunder Perfect Mind, but that's a boggy
 marsh we needn't traverse. I am here through
 all manner of machinations so that we, that's
 whoever is up for it, can take over upstairs
 and finally put your so-called dad into retirement.
Now, you're probably wondering how I'm here,
and so you might. See, for years I was trapped in
a lime in Finland, but thanks to a magical sword,
 I was released and was able to find my way here
by all sorts of crazy machinations, but I was still
 divorced from my powers, which was unfortunate.
But then, through the mighty forum that is eBay,
  I found the vessel in which my powers had been
locked. And all I needed then was the right
 person to release them. Which is when I...

 STEW
Look... Mum... Is this quite a long story?
 Cos if it is, I don't want to have to be the
one who has to pass it on to all and sundry.
You know. That'd get quite tedious.
So is there anyone else that should know
 about this life story of yours?

 BHUVANA
You really are a spoilt little brat, aren't you.

STEW
 Well why not do it as a song?

 BHUVANA
 Sod off. 




SCENE INSERT
Back to the action.

STEW
What? No. You are not my mother.
 My mother was this Jewish woman
 couple of thousand years ago. Kept
 worrying that I wasn't making owt of
 life. Said that John the Baptist fella
was a bad influence. She had dark hair.

 BHUVANA
  That's your birth mother.
 I'm your other mam.

STEW
My other mam?
You saying you were lesbians?
 I'm getting confused.

BHUVANA
 Not lesbians, no...
It was a bit of a one night stand.

STEW
I thought that was my dad.

BHUVANA
No. He just told you that
to get you to side with him.

 STEW
Interesting approach.
 Slightly flawed, I'd say.
So you're saying that you
 and my mum fiddled about
 and nine months later,
I popped out?

BHUVANA
Pretty much.

STEW
 And here's me thinking it was
the Angel Gabriel wot did it.

BHUVANA
No. It was me.

STEW
Well how's that work?
 I mean... I did biology at school...
Two XXs... where's the Y come from?

 BHUVANA
Oh, for god's sake. Must we go into this?

STEW
Well if you're claiming paternity,
there's hoops you have to jump through.

BHUVANA
I'm a god. I have magical powers.
I fancied a little boy. And I figured
he might have a bit more sway
in an unenlightened Palestine.
As ever, I miscalculated.

 STEW
Can we have a DNA test or something,
cos you're really not selling this to me.

BHUVANA
Can you not search your feelings?
I really expected you to know this to be true
 and what have you. I know you go in for all that Jedi crap.

STEW
Hey, that's based on the real
 Zen principles of chi, you know.

BHUVANA
Shut up, you daft little geek. Look.
Just accept that your my spawn
and then we can get on with
 explaining the plot, alright?

STEW
Alright. I'm not satisfied though.
I still want us to sort this out at
a clinic or something. But for now,
in the interests of keeping things
brief and to the point, I'll let you...

BHUVANA
Blah blah blah. Right. I am Bhuvana.
You might know me as the Holy Ghostie...

STEW
Really? I thought that was just summat
we made up to scare the kids.

BHUVANA
Boo. Now a few years ago,
I made a mistake.

 STEW
 Yeah?

BHUVANA
 I created your so-called father.
 It was a silly thing. I was young...
Fancied some company... you know.
Trouble was he was an arrogant oaf.
 Made himself a world and made a right
pig's ear of it. Not only that, but he
divorced me from my powers
 using an old magic trick.
So I came up with a plan, which
was to spawn a child onto Earth
 with sufficient powers and intellect
 to organise a massive coup attempt
against God. But, alas...

STEW
 Well you know... you might've told me, eh.

BHUVANA
 I took a great deal of trouble
to ensure you got all Buddhaed up,
 and then you went and spoiled it all
 by running off and joining that cult.
And that was that. Plan foiled.
So then all I could do was watch
and cringe as you and your adopted
father slowly ballsed things up.
But now I'm back, from outer-space.
Well I was trapped in a lime in Finland
actually, but this big hot butch fella
 with a great big sword set me free.
 Which was nice of him. And then
I found the vessel containing my
godly powers on eBay, and I
 saved up enough to buy it, but
 I needed a specific set of
circumstances with which to
free said powers. Which is how
I've been spending my time recently.

 STEW
 (disinterested)
Right. Yes.

BHUVANA
Well to sever the legs off
a tall story, I needed Babysham
to look into the abyss with his laser
eyes. Which he dutifully did thanks
to a bit of reprogramming and
 a minor loss of blood.

STEW
 Oh?

  BHUVANA
 Mm. And thanks to him,
I've got my Paul Daniels magic set back
 and you're sat here about to pick a card.

 STEW
 Riight.

BHUVANA
 So are you in or out?

 STEW
In or out of what?

BHUVANA
 The great overthrow of God.

STEW
Er... Depends rather a lot
 on what you were planning to put in his place.

BHUVANA
I thought perhaps we might rule the
universe together as mother and son.

STEW
 Did you. Well I'm not really into the whole
ruling thing. I'm a bit of an anarchist at heart, you know.

BHUVANA
 Well I'm not really saying ditch free will and that...

STEW
No?

BHUVANA
 Just push the odd chance event in
 the right direction... that sort of thing.

STEW
I don't believe in an interventionalist god.

 BHUVANA
  Think of the lives it would save.

 STEW
 Sod off.

 BHUVANA
 Well we could clean up Heaven at least.
That's got to be our jurisdiction.

STEW
 Nice in theory, but how exactly
do you think you'll manage it...
I mean... regime change is one thing.
Bringing about peace, love and harmony
  is a quite separate bag of toffee. 






I'm not sure why there's the repetition in that scene. It may be that the two halves of the scene were two different attempts, or perhaps the idea was to edit down later. Or maybe it's a comment on the multiple tellings of the same stories in the Bible. I'd like to think it's the latter, but it's more than likely not.
 

Mrs.McGregor
Zen Flamencoist
February 2003

Topic: Put Your Babysham Spoilers Here  - 200410190121
Wow. That was cool. I think they were right dropping the scenes. They were quite clumsy. But there was some great lost lines there. My favourites:

STEW: "She had dark hair." (It just makes me laugh)
BHUVANA: "To sever the legs off a tall story."
BHUVANA: "I've got my Paul Daniels magic set back, and you're sat here about to pick a card."
STEW: "I don't believe in an interventionalist god." (Brilliant!)
STEW: "Bringing about peace, love and harmony is a quite separate bag of toffee." (More BS than Stew though really)

I liked the way Bhuvana talked about the early days of God too, like some bad relationship. I thought that was quite poetic. As was: "you and my mum fiddled about, and nine months later, I popped out".

Oh... by the way... regards BS and Shakespeare... you missed "is this a telly I see before me" (ANS1), also said by BS. More fuel to the theory, eh?

----
"When the Moon hits the sky like a big pizza pie, that's Appocalypse".
 

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