Interview with John Craven. August 1977.

Backstage in a Carmarthen pub, Evan Paris finds himself in the presence of John Craven and Ike Imeson.

EP - That was quite a gig.
JC - What else were you expecting?
EP - Well it's the first time I've seen you play. I was expecting a band or something.
II - Just us two.
EP - Yeah. I thought it worked really well.
JC - Good. Drink?

Craven proffers a bottle of Irish whiskey.

EP - Please. Thanks. I mean, that's quite a different set-up isn't it? What made you come up with that?
JC - What?
EP - Just the two of you on stage.
JC - Well there's two of us.
EP - Yeah, I know. But it's quite unusual not to have, you know... at least a bassist or something up there.
JC - There was a bassist.
II - Yeah. John was playing bass.
EP - Yeah, but you know what I mean...
JC - Well there's only two of us. We'd've had to pay someone else. Seems a bit daft if you ask me.
EP - Yeah.
JC - Crisp?
EP - Thankyou. So do you think that two-pieces are the way forward?
JC - I expect the bassists'd have something to say about that.
II - Do I get a crisp?
JC - Here. No. I mean, you're always going to get groups, aren't you... safety in numbers.
II - We're just more talented than them.
EP - I thought there was a really good, I don't know... relationship on stage... a sort of chemistry.
JC - We love each other very much.
EP - No. But you know what I mean?
JC - He batters the drums when I nod at him. It's not that difficult, eh, Ike?
II - Mm? No. He nods. I batter. Good set up.
EP - Right. Well it seems to work.
JC - Yes.
EP - So is the new album going to be like this?
JC - No.
EP - Oh.
JC - We don't record like this.
EP - No.
JC - We just play live like this.
EP - Right.
JC - Gigs should sound different to albums. Otherwise, what's the point in going to the gig? Cheaper to stay at home and put the record on.
EP - Well you played some songs that weren't on the record.
JC - No. Well they're on the next one.
EP - Well that's a draw.
JC - Some people are funny. Seems more sense to do it different live. No one's complained yet.
EP - Well, no. It was good.
JC - Exactly. Crisp?
EP - Go on then. So what did you think of your first album?
JC - What did I think of it?
EP - Yes.
JC - Um. Well I thought it were good enough to release, if that's any consolation.
EP - Do you listen to it?
JC - Occasionally. I think it's rather good.
EP - It took me a while to get used to it.
JC - Well I sort of play music like a sketch. That sounds shit. Um. I'm trying to compare music to painting. I don't paint it photo-real. I sort of sketch it. Nice hairy lines. It doesn't matter if it sounds a bit hairy, cos you can still see what it is, even if you have to squint. Am I making any sense at all?
II - No.
JC - Well you can have a pretty abstract image of an object and still be able to see what it is. It doesn't have to be a perfect like for like representation of something.
EP - I see. Yeah.
JC - I mean a lot of the interpretation is supposed to be done in your head. You er.. you can produce it how you like in your head. You can home in on any bit of the music or whatever. Pay really lots of attention to the bass part and ignore the drums or whatever. And add a stab here or there. Er... You're not supposed to take it all literally. You're allowed to play with it in your head.
EP - Isn't that just an excuse for you shirking your production duties.
JC - Oh yeah. Sure. But I don't care. I mean it doesn't matter to me if I don't hit the note I were after. I like that rawness. Craven "A" were all done on the first take.
EP - Yeah?
JC - Yeah. Each bit of it were only recorded once. I mean there's over-dubs and stuff, but... crisp?
EP - No thanks.
II - Go on then.
JC - That's just the way I work. I mean I like the rawness. The purity of it. And er.. I like to come across as a pompous tosser in interviews.
EP - You're doing very well.
JC - Thankyou.
EP - But isn't it rather over produced, to say you crave rawness?
JC - There's a lot of lines on the paper; a lot of scribbling over the top of other scribbles, but that doesn't make it any less raw, I don't think.
II - It just makes it more of a scribble.
JC - Yeah. Nice one.
II - My pleasure.
JC - Can we stop discussing my ethos now? It makes me sound like a cunt.
EP - Ok.

John downs his whiskey and pours out another glass full.

EP - So your next album is due out at the end of next month.
JC - Is it? Shit. We better finish it, Ike.
II - A-huh.
EP - That's what your press release says.
JC - It's almost certainly right. They've already printed the sleeve.
EP - Oh yeah?
JC - There's three of them.
EP - That's a bit decadent.
JC - Oh. Anyway, one's er... Ike dressed as the Grim Reaper. Well actually he looks more like a skinny Uncle Fester from the Addams Family.
II - I shaved my beard off special.
JC - He did. Then there's a rather tatty dog with one of those lampshade things around its neck, and um... the last cover is... do you know Sheer Heart Attack by Queen?
EP - Queen?
JC - Yeah. You know... Quite famous. Bohemian Rhapsody and all that... Anyway, erm... one of their album sleeves has them laid out looking unwell, and we've kind of abused it to make them look dead. Gouged their eyes out, ripped out their intestines, that sort of thing. Amazing what you can do with a purple crayon... makes... great bruises.
EP - Right...
JC - Cos it's called Death Bitch Queen, see. Death, bitch, and Queen. Clever huh? My favourite's the Queen one.
EP - Oh.
JC - Yeah. We've even stolen bits of Sheer Heart Attack for the music.
EP - What?
JC - We've sort of used bits of it. Taped them. Chopped them up. Played them backwards. Sounds good.
II - He's been listening to too much Terry Riley.
JC - I have.
EP - So is it quite different then this album?
JC - Quiiite... I mean there's some stuff on it like the stuff on Craven "A". I mean we played some tonight.
EP - Dead Clergy...?
JC - Yeah. That's one. And there's er... Death Bitch Queen, and Fuck Window. We played them tonight.
EP - Ahuh.
JC - But then there's other stuff. A lot of it is just instrumental.
EP - Oh yes. A little bird told me that you'd been hanging around school orchestras trying to get them to play bits of the Star Wars soundtrack.
JC - How'd you find that out?
EP - I have my contacts.
JC - Well yeah. We've covered a bit of that. We had this school orchestra play it, but it sounded awful. We thought about using it, cos it were ok in a funny sort of really bad kind of way, but I don't think it were really awful enough if you know what I mean... so we had to bung it through the er... blue meanie and cover it in synths and things.
EP - I see...
JC - Sounds quite beautiful now.
EP - Yeah. It's quite a piece of kit that blue meanie.
JC - Yeah.
EP - How's it work?
JC - Haven't got a clue.
EP - Oh.
JC - I mean, I'm no electrician. I just bought a load of kit over the years and soldered it all together in probably highly dangerous ways. And if it made a pretty noise I were happy. I've got this book, where I write in certain things that I do. For instance, if I er... want to... get that vroomy sweeping feedback effect that I used to death on Craven "A", I er... press this switch, and... this switch, and set these dials to 3, 7 and 9. Clever huh.
EP - Yeah.
JC - She's getting a bit big now though. It's getting tricky transporting her to the gigs. She's quite fagile. You know, you have to bang her in a particular way to get her to work properly. I love that in electrical items though... when they're old and ricketty and only work if you take them out to dinner. I like personality in my equipment.
EP - Will she be getting a credit on the album then.
JC - Er... Never thought of it. Maybe I ought to... But we've gone to press already. Nice idea though. I'll put her on the next one, I'm sure. (to blue meanie-) Won't we... yees we wiiilll! Aw.
EP - Speaking of credits, I've been interested in your input into things, Ike.
II - Mee?
EP - Yes.
II - Well I don't do a lot on the albums. I'm the live man.
JC - He er... sends me tapes from Sheffield, and I make drum loops from them.
EP - Yeah. But you've got co-credit on Sleeping Heavy and One Night Stand.
II - Well I co-wrote One Night Stand.
JC - And he did the maths on er... Sleeping Heavy.
EP - Maths?
JC - Yeah. Sums. There were a lot of measurements and things to be done for that, and he did them. He's great at maths. He's like a calculator. In fact, I think he'd like to be a calculator.
II - Oh yes.
EP - I see. So what about on the new album?
II - I don't do a lot.
JC - There's not a lot of drums on this new album.
EP - So are people going to like this new album of yours?
JC - Dunno. Someone must do. Surely.
EP - What about the people that bought Craven "A".
JC - Dunno. I don't see why they'd not like at least some of it.
EP - But it's quite different. More proggy?
JC - I don't know about proggy... This is the er... the new wave of rock music.
EP - Gosh.
JC - Yup. Breaking down frontiers without resorting to twenty minute drum solos.
EP - Hard lines, Ike.
II - I'm ok with it.
EP - So you're not sticking with the punk thing?
JC - What punk thing?
EP - Punk? Quite a big thing at the moment?
JC - Oh that. Yeah. That's ok. Just rock'n'roll though, innit...
EP - Not entirely unlike your gig today though?
JC - No. I know. I don't want to pigeon hole myself. I like punk. I accept many of its tenants. I mean the whole anyone can play it thing... that's good. But you know... it doesn't just have to be er... three chords... anyone can play anything they like. I think we should abandon this whole chords and notes business. I want to make pretty noises. And sometimes not so pretty noises. It doesn't matter if you're in tune or not. I hate tuning up. I'm going off on one again. Stop me please before I go insane.
EP - Ok. So it's like progressive punk then?
JC - What?
EP - The new album.
JC - I suppose you could call it that. I don't call it anything. I just call it music. Or Nigel.
EP - Nigel?
JC - Nigel.
EP- Riight. Ok. I hear that you've been working with Cathy Carrow.
JC - That's one way of putting it.
EP - I mean you've been working with the Cookie Crumbs on their new album.
JC - Oh. Right. Yeah.
EP - Doing what?
JC - Production, engineering mainly... I er... co-wrote a couple of the songs with Cathy.
EP - Oh yeah?
JC - Yeah. Actually, on that last single they were both co-written by me, and one of them Ike had a hand in too... didn't you Ike?
II - Yes.
JC - Yes.
II - He's been getting her to listen to the Ramones.
JC - I have, yes.
EP - So are the Cookie Crumbs turning punk on us?
JC - I think they'll be more like Blondie than the Slits.
II - Unfortunately.
JC - Not for the want of trying.
EP - So you're quite the machiavellan influence of the Cookie Crumbs then?
JC - If I were the machiavellan influence they'd be the Slits. No I'm more just a... distant lighthouse, pointing them roughly in the right direction, and occasionally producing songs about um... soap opera characters.
EP - It was quite the talking point in the office was Rita Fairclough.
JC - Did you like it?
EP - Surprisingly good.
JC - Ah. The sweet power...
EP - It was a big underground hit.
JC - Yup. I don't want to take all the credit for saving Cathy's career or anything, but... a-hem...
EP - I can think of more worthy causes.
JC - Don't let Cathy hear you say that. She'll rip your ears off.
II - How come you still have yours?
JC - I use an old Jedi mind trick.
II - Fuck off.
EP - You're certainly a curious couple.
JC - Are we?
EP - Well you're the dark prince of noise...
JC - Am I? Ooh.
EP - ...and she's...
JC - Do I get a crown?
EP - She's the prom queen.
II - Very good.
JC - I'm here to lead her astray.
EP - You must be a PR nightmare for the clean, honest Cookies.
JC - The Cookie Crumbs aren't clean and honest. They're a lot of things but they aren't clean and honest. Huh. Lucy Says She's Pregnant But She Just Wants To Be In... how's that clean and honest? And some of their songs were positively filthy.
EP - You're quite the expert.
JC - I live with one of them. You've got to know the enemy... I mean... twee, yes. But clean... They're like Carry On films.
II - And you're shagging Barbara Windsor.
JC - God no. That's Helena.
EP - Hattie Jaques?
JC - No. Jacki Piper maybe...
II - No. That's Kirsten, surely.
JC - Is it?
EP - I don't know who Jacki Piper is.
II - Yeah. You're screwing Joan Sims.
JC - I'm going out with the wrong one... How'd that happen?
EP - What about Liz Fraser?
JC - That's probably Andy McKay...
II - Anyway, the Carry Ons have gone crap now.
JC - Yeah, and the Cookie Crumbs are only just warming up.
EP - They're playing Cardiff tonight.
JC - That's very clever. You're good at this lark.
EP - Yes. My girlfriend's there.
JC - I know the feeling.
EP - Are you not worried that your exposure to the Cookie Crumbs will make you soft rather than make them hard?
II - Exposure to the Cookie Crumbs is enough to make anyone hard.
JC - He likes the drummer.
II - He's really dishy.
JC - See.
EP - Right.
JC - Well I don't know about you, but... I fancy a curry.
EP - Ok then. Thanks a lot.
II - You not wanting a curry?
EP - Well yes. Alright.

Death Bitch Queen is released on September 26th.